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Trol
(Lost In Limbo)
Posts : 6102
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1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
08/25/03 10:16 AM |
Palicrovol has posted the v 1.64 over on the Animist Class Board's Animist Class Reports Forum. Developer Feedback has been added:Blue = Mackey's feedback.
Red = my notes
1.0 Overview
Little has changed balance-wise for Animists since my last report. We're still waiting on important bug fixes and the vast majority of Animists are still forced to specialize primarily in Arborial Mastery to feel useful.
2.0 Concerns
2.1 Concern I - Bomber-related power loss (copied & pasted for reemphasis)
Wasted power is a serious problem for Animists. When a normal caster casts, there's no worry about the power being wasted because if the target dies before the casting time is over, the spell is canceled. Animists, on the other hand, have to cast the vast majority of their targeted spells via bombers. If the target of the bomber dies while it's en route, the bomber just stands there till its timer runs out, wasting the Animist's power on an effect that never happened.
I understand the issue and will try and think up ways to address it, if at all possible. Not an easy thing to fix given how power is debited in the code.
Solution: In the case of single target bombers, when the target dies, the bomber should despawn and give the power spent on it back to the Animist. In the case of AE bombers, the bomber should explode on the dead target (only the AI of the bomber would be changed, the spell would still be canceled if the target dies as the Animist is still summoning the bomber).
2.2 Concern II - Bomber Speed
On the one hand, bomber speed is a constant source of pain and annoyance for Animists. On the other hand, stacking, a side effect of slow bomber speed, is the single positive aspect of bombers. To make the vast majority of Animists happy, the community agrees that bomber speed must be made faster (likely to where they were in 1.62a), but at the same time, Spirit of Anger and Wisp Heat casting times must be lowered (both to 2.6s). This would lessen the cast-to-damage time without ruining the possibility of stacking. Animist DPS would still remain lower than other damage caster in most cases, but at least the differences would be lessened.
Okay, I understand the concern here. Will look into ways of addressing this without causing other problems.
2.3 Concern III - Root Bomber Viability
Crowd control is all about speed and initiative. Anything that slows a form of crowd control down is going to have a major negative impact on the person trying to cast that crowd control. Even in a case where travel time and detonation delay only add a single second to the equation, you can see a major difference, because with people running around at speed 5 and 6, that equates to a huge variation in distance (so even after improving bomber speed, this is still a major problem). When someone is running away from me, that difference can mean that my enemy has reached some form of safety before being rooted instead of being caught out in the open. When someone is running towards me, that difference might mean that they were able to get in range to do something nasty that they couldn't have done to me otherwise.
Good explanation of the problem. There are a lot of ways we could address this, one of which being to give animists greater range on their rooting bombers. Will let you know what we come up with.
I'll make sure that he understands that increasing the range wouldn't solve the variation problems when my target is running away or when they're already in melee range of me (due to detonation delay).
Solution: Make both Animist roots normal casts instead of bombers.
2.4 Concern IV - Crowd Controlling Turrets
Nothing is more painful than watching the enemy crowd control 2.5 power bars' worth of turrets. While players get to benefit from radius reductions, resists, and possibly Determination, turrets get none of those things. While this is certainly a problem for any pet, turrets are hit far worse. Not only are FnF turrets on timers (meaning the crowd control effectively reduces the turret's active lifespan), but all turrets are stationary, meaning they only cover a certain small area. Crowd control allows the enemy to easily move through that area so that the power spent summoning those turrets goes completely wasted. At least with a normal pet, once the crowd control has faded, they can still go chasing after the enemy. With turrets, once the enemy is gone, there's no catching up.
Will review this issue with the design team. Lots of ways it can be addressed as well.
Good stuff.
Solution: Give turrets some Determination so that at least if the battle happens nearby them, they have a better chance of waking up around the same time their master does.
3.0 Specline Issues
3.1 Specline I - Arborial Mastery
- A simpler idea to address the problem with Tanglers addressed in the last report (the fact that the vast majority of Animists only use the first version) would be to make the later versions cast a small radius AE root or a PBAE root.
3.2 Specline II - Creeping Mastery
- This line really needs something to better attract people to it, as it is seriously underspecced. The largest reason for this is that while the debuffs effect a lot of people (when there are plenty of people to debuff), they don't really make enough of a difference.
We have a lot of things on the plate for animists
Very good news.
Solution: Double the effectiveness of both DPS debuffs. Reduce the single target DPS debuffing turret to a 15s duration and the PBAE to 10s. Change the AE ABS debuff to an AE AF debuff (-150 at the top version) that lasts 20s.
3.3 Specline III - Verdant Mastery
- Because of its short duration and the fact that it doesn't stack with the Essence of the Tree line, the Guardian Emissary line is highly underused.
Solution: Make it an AE like the bladeturn bomber that can affect a maximum of 3 people in one cast (the number of people affected wouldn't increase with later versions). Increase the power costs to [12, 21, 30, 39, 49, 58] to compensate.
- Even when the Ligneous Sheath line has had its AI fixed, it will still be very much on the weak side because of its buffs low values, short duration, short range, and high cost.
Solution: Boost all the HP values to [15, 25, 35, 45, 60, 75], make the buff last 3 minutes instead of 1, give the turret a casting range of 1500 instead of 1000, and reduce the power costs to [10, 17, 23, 30, 40, 50].
We have a lot of things on the plate for animists changes and bug fixes so any spec line issues will need to wait until we see the results of other changes.
I'm sure I'm not the only one giggling with anticipation here. OK, maybe I am the only one giggling. Er, maybe I'm not giggling at all! Maybe I'm just sitting here lookin' cool and calm. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing!
4.0 New Issues
4.1 New Issue I - Groundset Problems
I just wanted to emphasize that while the new /groundset command is highly appreciated, it is quite buggy at the moment.
Bug /appeal with as much information as you can.
5.0 Other Issues
- The baseline root should be a 2.5s cast, not 3.0s.
Bug /appeal this.
There's a little more good news about upcomming changes, but I forgot to ask if I could share it with you guys. I'll ask now.   |
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Ronbrugal
(Registered)
Posts : 13
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/12/03 6:49 AM |
I been thinking of a option of redirecting the unused bombs unto another target.
If I have 1 bomb unused. I could selected another target hit this button, and off the bomb goes.
Another idea was if I walk over unused bombs I could get my mana back from it or "pet command" cancel the selected spell.
""" Also Animist should be able to fly, cast gate spells, inst mez, and run at speed 10 (because speed 6 is to slow). :) j/k """ 2year Rep for Hibbie Lancalot Ronbrugal TheSecond Lv41(exlv50 Elder) Statica Brugal Lv50 Animist Gwaletbrugal 815WC $$$$$$$ |
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lordego
(Registered)
Posts : 424
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/15/03 4:53 PM |
| Could you mention the fact that PBae just don't work if your shroom is not on level ground. Just made my amni and finding spots to camp where I can place my shroom on competely level ground is a pain in teh arse. I can't imagine the pain it will be in RvR. |
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Laarfana
(Registered)
Posts : 1
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/16/03 8:45 AM |
*first of all, excuse my bad english, i am from Germany =) *
I play an Animist on Verdant-Spcc at Lyoness.
Most of all there seems to be a very big bug in the way the PbAE is castet by the Pet. I tested this by duelling some Guild-Members and on common mobs.
1.) The Pet (and so the Pet-Bomb) does not benefit of the Animist's INT. There is no difference if i get an INT-Buff from an Druid or not, the dam is the same. Even when the Pet is buffed, there is no difference.
2.) It can't be ok that i need my _full mana_ to eliminate _one_ orange stated mob with the PbAE. An Arboriel-specced Animist (same lvl then me) kills the same mob 4 - 5 times and even has got some mana left.
Over all the most Animists ar not able to do anything in normal RvR-Situations in cause of the casttime of nearly all spells. When evil forces are incomming and i try to build only one FaF-Turett, 7 sec. are gone before it does some dam. Thats much to long.
Most of all the verdant specc has got nothing usefull whithout his Pet. It would be great when only the specc Pet's could follow they're Master and get stationary when casting. |
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Cap'n Napalm
(Registered)
Posts : 104
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/17/03 10:57 AM |
Laarfana and Lordego.. if you want to talk to the Animist TL, this is not the place to do it.
http://animist.olgg.org/forum/index.php, the board maintained by that TL, would be the place you want to go.
Laarfana, the bomber pets not being affected by int has, I believe, been resolved on the US servers.
Verdant pbae is indeed broken, everyone's aware of it. If you're going to go post on the animist boards, you'll need to find a topic that hasn't been beaten to death. :)
Regarding casting time and 7 seconds being much too long, animists in rvr are one of the most situation-dependant classes in the game. If you were an Arboreal animist and therefore had some viable options.. in a fight where 7 seconds is a really long time, casting the base arboreal lifetap has a good chance of being your best bet. In slightly longer fights, bombers might come into play.
In a keep fight or a zerg-vs-zerg fight where the combat can reasonably be expected to last for more than a minute, throwing shrooms around becomes much more practical. :) |
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SirSAmeth
(Registered)
Posts : 16
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/17/03 3:48 PM |
Laarfana: your english is fine, there are people born and raised in the us or england on this site who talk totally incomprehensibly :) Mythic:(reading)"Please help us Hibs!"(continues reading)... "39 Druid Spunkmaster Flex, Forces of Nature, Lancelot" Mythic: "Hey Bob! take that vote off the list, its just some silly Hib. We never listen to them!" |
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Daam
(Vaan)
Posts : 2824
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/19/03 11:30 PM |
I don't think that creeping or verdant should be able to kill a mob as fast or as easily as arbor spec.
Arbor is the hard hitting nuking spec. For verdant I think Mythic is going to have to make a big choice...either support or make it the "mana" line for animists. Right now there is nothing that the verdant animist really does well. Most of the time relying on base spells, which is not right in my mind.
I'd love to see the pbaoe brought up in damage but that may cause other problems too. Some would complain soooo much about this just because a mana eld/chanter has to run into the middle of a battle....tanks eat em alive....where the animist can cast a fnf in the middle and pbaoe. Ohh wait look over there, cast another fnf and pbaoe....oh and over there too.
Would be really nice, but I have a feeling that the damage on the pbaoe will not get any large bumps in damage just due to the capability of casting multiple shrooms around the room and then pbaoe em as you stand in one spot. |
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lordego
(Registered)
Posts : 424
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
09/22/03 1:49 PM |
DAAM
The PBae spell Delve Value is sickening Low. You can only cast it through your controlled pet. That means you would have to Pick a GT, Cast a shroom then PBae without anyone move away from it lol. Then Release the pet, pick a new spot, recast pet and PBae. See the problem with that? A caster runs in and casts his PBae or uses it to protect healers/other casters. they always get 1 QC PBae and most of MoC. If your a Mid SM you get all that and anytime MoC with AE 10 sec stun+PBae OUCH!
I made my animist knowing that with their limitations my Verdant spec would really have one place that it could be "the best" at something and that was to be keep defense. Eveything outside of Aborial spec is based mostly on Fixed shrooms which are useless in RvR. The only time they are really decent is in keep defense or when you know vaders are coming. Its just way to easy to aviod a big mushroom you see from a mile away lol. With all the know problems with PBae shrooms and the horrible Delve value on the spells my dream has faded away, along with any desire to level my animist past 37 atm 8(. |
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mals7
(Registered)
Posts : 18
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
10/16/03 12:59 PM |
WOOOOOOOOT
maybe we get some love, would be nice.
All issues are exactly what i feel about the class.
Sweetleaf Excal Euro
rr4.4 |
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Daam
(Vaan)
Posts : 2824
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
10/17/03 11:17 PM |
Ahh lordego sorry for the delay in reply but you can cast on any turret. I even cast on tanglers (did it less than 10 hours ago in df and yes it hit). Unless this is a bug and I'm just getting lucky with it, the pbaoe can be cast on turrets.
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Doober
(Registered)
Posts : 144
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
10/18/03 8:45 AM |
good stuff :) ___________________________ Doober - celt animist southy - keen shade windrow - keen ranger excaliber (euro) "barthalomew, the dasterdly barbarians are attacking. Foe shizzel mine nizzel" |
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Hillgiant
(Registered)
Posts : 460
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
10/23/03 5:12 PM |
Disturbing. Mackey keeps mentioning having "a lot of things" for the animists, yet there is nothing in 1.65. In fact he never metions any sort of timetable. He does not even go so far as to address the actual problem the TL has brought up. Is he using the promise of Animist Love (tm) in some unknow shape and at some unknown time?
I assume/hope Palicrovol has more information that he cannot devulge. |
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Haley
(Pendragon Gerbil)
Posts : 2099
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
11/09/03 4:23 PM |
| Good point Hillgiant. I think we'd all like to see less talking and more implementing. I really hope some nice, but fair, changes are in future for the animist. |
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Laik
(Registered)
Posts : 12
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
11/10/03 2:26 PM |
I know there's alot of problems with verdancy line but what verndancy does have is a really nice BT. I have a lvl 45 verdancy animist and i generally end up abs buffing everone and then spamming BT during fights. I have saved my group countless times and am dubbed the bubble factory. I use the lvl 36 ithink it is BT which is still fine for 55 level mobs and takes about 3 less power i think. I have found one use for the 15 sec abs buff; during focus pull groups i can abs the pet a bunch and it helps ALOT with the healing so the druid says. As far as the pbaoe goes the only use i have for it is to help my warbringer keep aggro. Verdancy pet is great for a degenerate form of CC.
Grywak Laik 45 Animist (guin) |
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Haley
(Pendragon Gerbil)
Posts : 2099
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
11/11/03 12:11 AM |
| I'd like to see verdant buffer pets last longer than 2 mins..at least 5 mins would be nice. Also would be nice if when we kill a controllable pet we could get the power back since they can't follow us around in a dungeon; or let them follow us. |
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lordego
(Registered)
Posts : 424
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RE: 1.64 Animist Team Lead Report |
11/19/03 4:51 PM |
Well I wanted to see if i missed anything and I didnt lol. This report had the right responses to keep everyone happy from Macky but nothing all has been mentioned about animist since lol.
The verdant spec line is really really crap for RvR. It is uber for PvE if used as a bot though. I use the AB buff and level 5 BT(hit 3 targets0 constantly.
FYI> you can use the level 5 Bub to get 3 closest target and spam it indefinitely with no mana loss at all. Ok OK its is boring and no way to play a main character but atleast I found a use for my animist now 8). Farming scolls, soloing artifact mobs, etc. With my druid bot parked somewhere I run my animist, Mana ment and ranger and I can tank 3 reds or 1 red-1 purp NP with HoT, AB buff(longterm one as the short term ab buff is shit) and level 5 bub. My animist is great to help on raids and such as a support toon BUT ONLY AS A BOT MIND YOU. I hit only 2 keys 99% of the time. AB buff and level 5 bub that is it. Only other keys I use are self buffs. I got my animist to just about 46 from being 39 pre ToA when I stopped playing her when I realized she could never be useful as a main toon as verdant spec.
I hope there is something soon for both verdant and creeping spec lines as promised.
My 2 cp |
